what he thinks, whether you and I forbid him or not?"
"I presume then that you are going to make one of the interdicted answers?"
"I dare say that I may, notwithstanding the danger, if upon
the city. He can marry whom he will and give in marriage to whom he will; also, he can trade and deal where he likes and always to his own advantage, because he has no misgivings about injustice;
sailor?
A captain of sailors.
The circumstance that he sails in the ship is not to be taken into account; neither is he to be called a sailor; the name pilot by which he is distinguished has
injustice. But I am too stupid to be convinced by him.
I wish, he said, that you would hear me as well as him, and then I shall see whether you and I agree. For Thrasymachus seems to me, like a
contention as to obtain office is at present; then we should have plain proof that the true ruler is not meant by nature to regard his own interest, but that of his subjects; and every one who knew
would have felt as they do. But this is not my own experience, nor that of others whom I have known. How well I remember the aged poet Sophocles, when in answer to the question, How does love suit
comparison with the unjust. First of all, in private contracts: wherever the unjust is the partner of the just you will find that, when the partnership is dissolved, the unjust man has always more
matter thus, I said--the just does not desire more than his like but more than his unlike, whereas the unjust desires more than both his like and his unlike?
Nothing, he said, can be better than
many advantages which wealth has to give, to a man of sense this is in my opinion the greatest."
"Well said Cephalus" I replied "but as concerning justice, what is it?-- to speak the truth and to
incantations, binding heaven, as they say, to execute their will. And the poets are the authorities to whom they appeal, now smoothing the path of vice with the words of Hesiod:
Vice in abundance
in private life, could only regard the good of his flock or subjects; whereas you seem to think that the rulers in states, that is to say, the true rulers, like being in authority.
Think! Nay, I
one man does one thing which is natural to him and does it at the right time, and leaves other things.
Undoubtedly..
Then more than four citizens will be required; for the husbandman will not
proper excellence and have a defect instead?
How can they, he said, if they are blind and cannot see?
You mean to say, if they have lost their proper excellence, which is sight; but I have not
virtue of man?"
"Certainly."
"And that human virtue is justice?"
"To be sure."
"Then men who are injured are of necessity made unjust?"
"That is the result."
"But can the musician
money; for you do not want a just man to be your counselor the purchase or sale of a horse; a man who is knowing about horses would be better for that, would he not?"
"Certainly."
"And when you
therefore I had best give such help as I can.
Glaucon and the rest entreated me by all means not to let the question drop, but to proceed in the investigation. They wanted to arrive at the truth,
according to your argument, is not only obedience to the interest of the stronger but the reverse?
What is that you are saying? he asked.
I am only repeating what you are saying, I believe. But
that men are not just of their own free will — unless, peradventure, there be someone whom the divinity within him may have inspired with a hatred of injustice or who has attained knowledge of the
delighted, Thrasymachus, to see you not only nodding assent and dissent, but making answers which are quite excellent.
That is out of civility to you, he replied.
You are very kind, I said; and
Plato, is a little bitch.
