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replied 513d
Also, I cannot buy stuff with such a note from a third party like I can with money. Trade becomes very hampered by such a system, no? And disputes about the text, do I need a lawyer?
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replied 513d
Yes you can, in a communities where people face neighbors.
It replaces cash because it declares a certain Value (1hour of labor, or, 1 kilo of sugar, or ?)
It can accelerate barter.
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replied 512d
I am not saying this is all a totally rubbish idea, but there are many unique problems to handle. I.e. I say "I will work 1 hour for you", thinking I will work in your bakery.
replied 512d
Yes there will be problems,
similar to problems banks had when creating personal checking accounts.
Populations always seek ways to "game the system".
People need to 'brain up'.
replied 512d
I think the normal trajectory of such things is that first people do "brain up", but then after some time someone says, this is a jungle, we want, nay NEED less danger.
replied 512d
Then someone comes up with a walled garden version of the thing, with assurances and so on, and it catches on, and becomes what the masses use to avoid being taken to the cleaners.
replied 512d
Then over time this new system evolves to not only take care of security/guarantees for a cost, but also to have all the characteristics of a modern bank. I.e. the new thing you make,
replied 512d
it may eventually change character slowly into what you are trying to replace. At least I have seen no guarantee that this does not happen. Before that though, it can be nice I suppose
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replied 511d
4 well-composed thoughts - yes,
you are correct.
A cycle resembling the eternal sword-vs-shield game.
Isaac Asimov posed an interesting solution to that in his Foundation Trilogy.
replied 511d
I read that trilogy decades ago. Can you refresh my memory on the basic solution idea? Sword-vs-shield is also unknown to me.
replied 511d
Hari Seldon tried to solve the interminable problem of power decadence by creating two Foundations.
One was known and visible.
The 2nd was a mythical threat to keep the 1st honest.
replied 511d
His 2nd Foundation was both mythical and actual.
The myth was a form of what is now called "predictive programming".
The actuality was a crude approximation of WEF.
Technocrat meddlers
replied 511d
Upon reflection,
a current interpretation is that various
religious myths have for centuries been "predictive programming" (until Hollywood)
devised by "Illuminati" actualizers.
replied 511d
I suppose I was too young to think such thoughts when I read those books. But I recently read some of the first Dune stuff. There Bene Gesserit does such things, spelled out.
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He composed a masterpiece including many details of how tyranny and spirituality collide.
replied 511d
Makes you wonder indeed. Christianity, a religion started by a Jew, has scripture saying Jews are better than them for example, and it made Jews' oppressors (romans) less aggressive.
replied 511d
Sword-vs-Shield:
The term has vanished into history.
It describes the eternally circular competition of
improving weapons to defeat armour
and improving armour to survive weapons.
replied 511d
Ah, I know that as an "arms race".
replied 512d
You sell that bill to someone who will put me in a coal mine or to clean out manure or something like that. Or, you want to buy services from a traveling salesman.
replied 512d
An hour of work is a notional Value - it is specifically only a Value - to be negotiated around.
A traveling salesman should be clever enough to ask ahead of time which notes are best
replied 512d
"best", for his purposes, which are not everyone else's purposes. Fiat is easier that way, one note is as good as the next. We may need to sacrifice this, but there is a cost to that.
replied 512d
The traveling salesman has no use for my local work, as he will be gone the next day, and can't even find me by then. When gone he might never come back.
replied 512d
Any traveling salesman who wants to prosper will specialize in crypto or local currencies that have credibility in his next venue. He might trade local notes to pay for local expenses.
replied 512d
OK, you already plan to base it on other money systems, it is only for use as "physical cash", not "currency"? And you must accept all the aforementioned kinds of irregularities?
replied 512d
I suppose such problems can often be worked around with clever wording and so on. But even then, I believe a "gold standard" or similar thing is far more easy to deal with.
replied 512d
Gold standard is already hammered out of existence by the LBMA mafia.
This is a fundamental flaw in commodity standards - they get owned by the richest psychopaths.
replied 512d
Are you saying direct gold ownership is broken? I suppose writing notes based on gold is a messy business, I can write an infinite number of notes based on the same piece of gold.
replied 511d
Yes - and people do double-sell, but not too often.
Paper currencies written on gold already exist in places around the world.
with serious credibility issues. And always Mafia owned.
replied 511d
I just find that gold still is tangible. The "work for 1 hour" seems even easier to twist and turn into something it is not. For gold I should be able to demand to have my gold.
replied 511d
Yes - tangible goods command premium price.
Which how I came to this.
Originally I thought we could do it with crypto but crypto can be problematic.
Goods in hand are demonstrable.
replied 510d
Btw, there are of course people who have discussed ideas along similar lines before. Info can be found in philosophy of Counter-Economics and Agorism (both have dedicated Memo topics).
replied 510d
Thanks for the idea.
I searched long and hard over the years but such discussions I never found.
Another round is in order.
replied 509d
Maybe I shouldn't have said that though. All I know is that there are these communities, and they "probably have thought of similar things, maybe not". I don't even believe Agorism...
replied 509d
works well in the real world (except perhaps in very small communities). If it doesn't, the ones pushing it cannot be perfect philosophers, and may send you down a wrong track.
replied 509d
I specialize in discovering all the ways of being wrong at least once a day,
according to family. 😉
replied 511d
And the idea of a "1 hour" voucher is still an "in hand" Value which can be negotiated.
There can be a lot of wiggle room for both parties when negotiating for a "1 hour" Value.
replied 511d
And in theory the gold is in the vault, they cannot say "it's temporarily gone". Work for one hour? "No, this is a busy time for me, and I'm injured, come back next week".
replied 511d
And in the space of a few minutes their credibility is gone,
and thereafter,
the only people who will trade with them will require goods up front..
The cost of credibility is brutal.
replied 511d
Well, yes, though it could be that they are actually injured, and actually have a crazy week where they are pushed so hard that their extra work would be useless. But only that week.
replied 511d
Hopefully the free market can smell the difference between an circumstance and habit.
There are rough edges that cannot be dealt with by rule-making but will involve learning-curves.
replied 511d
The point is not "this guy is reliable/unreliable", it is "this note is unreliable". It could also be that this week is the time that noteholder actually needs some work done.
replied 510d
... in which case the issuer will negotiate for equivalent trade for that Value.
The concept is about trading negotiated Values rather than bartering for a specific item or service.
replied 509d
So a peasant from quite far away is in town to sell his cow. It is worth ~100 hours of work. The buyer has 25 notes of 1 hour work, 1 promise of a painting, 15 goat pelts, ... .
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replied 509d
Each hour work note is from a distinct person. The peasant must then go to each of them, and find out what kind of work they can do, negotiate some other compensation, all the while
replied 509d
having to know what all these things are worth, and how good quality goods he can get from this particular note-promise-giver. Then he has to calculate the overall value.
replied 509d
I originally thought to peg Value to cryptocurrency,
but if the internet goes away that possibility vanishes.
The lowest common denominator available to anyone anywhere is Time.
replied 509d
And the lowest common denominator of Time is attendance.
That is, not performing work of any sort but simply escorting people for a period of time.
That can be an asset of some Value.
replied 509d
In the same way the market discovers a Value on the price of anything,
populations can be expected to 'discover' a Value on attendance.
This would be exciting fun to observe.
replied 508d
What I think you don't get is that something like gold, which cannot reasonably be considered to lose value, and has real value, is ideal. This is a very useful property for money.
replied 508d
I have for years understood that.
It is ideal until people need food, fuel, and shelter.
When a loaf of bread, pack of tobacco, and bottle of whiskey is worth more than a gram of gold.
replied 508d
Yea, but it *still works as a measuring rod*. If you need to pay a bar of gold for a loaf of bread, fine, then maybe 2 bars for really good bread. *Now we know the difference in cost*.
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replied 508d
Most other things, like attendance-time has a very flimsy value. Does a baby have the attendance value as a reliable, skilled worker? Of course not, baby can have negative such value.
replied 508d
So now you have the problem of deciding the attendance-time value of each person, cause it really does vary. Very useful people do have higher attendance value than slobs.
replied 508d
Very useful people do not barter their own time - they prefer to barter other people's time.
replied 508d
Such things btw has been tried in history. If you tie value to i.e. potatoes, then people will start growing potatoes that are barely edible, cause they are cheaper to grow.
replied 508d
"Such things btw has been tried in history." ...by predators running government scams.
It is a also a tradition with some religious communities, but it fails within cults.
replied 508d
I.e. it sets the wrong incentives. Same with man attendance. Also, if you do find such a standard, it would still be best to just use that standard. I.e. if Gold is chosen, then...
replied 508d
normally you use either gold directly or promises for gold. Not man-hours and the like, because then people need to calculate the difference, know the exchange rate and so on.
replied 508d
For man-hours, I would have to know the reliability of each worker in order to decide gold exchange-rate. It's better to call those "contracts", and have trained economists trade them
replied 508d
For man-hours, anyone would already know the credibility of whoever inked the note.
It has zero relevance to the issuers muscle or skill or time. It is all about his credibility.
replied 508d
OK, I think this is the time for me to stop. I find the problems I bring up to make your setup into a mess, one which I would not like, and you don't seem to care. I suppose I should
replied 508d
kind of take your advice here, and judge the credibility of something based on experience. I judge your payment-system not to be credible based on our conversation.
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replied 507d
Thank you for your critique
replied 507d
Usually what I am told is "Why are you always so negative?". This is definitely an improvement. :)
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replied 508d
... if you still feel the need to have them as an option for "payment". I.e. normal people will then not have to speculate on such values, but those who want to can.
replied 509d
I mean, some of them may be away when he visits or whatever, this can take a lot of time to sort out. Compare that with getting a stack of cash in his hand, and being on his way home.
replied 509d
Those notes are exactly that - a "a stack of cash in hand" when they are from individuals who have proven themselves with a previous history.
There will be lists of names to trust.
replied 511d
Gold in a vault, it must be there at all times, or that should be the demand from the public. There should not be a "the gold does not feel good" day. However, now I think about it...
replied 511d
Thieves can steal from the vault, it is not 100% impenetrable. Vault-owners may seek to maintain the "illusion" it is by replacing the gold, but gold may not be there some days.
replied 510d
This is why notes are signed by individuals and not in the name of "entities".
Business Entities are the disguises that malevolents use to prey upon individuals.
replied 509d
Hm, I was thinking more along the lines of "illusion in a good way", as in thieves stole the gold of a customer, let's replace it for him, cause it was our fault it got lost.
replied 509d
You are quite right that the trust that this helps building will be abused sooner or later, but my point was more that at least short term, "gold" is more reliable than "workhours"
replied 509d
One ounce of gold of purity x replaces another similar ounce, and when you got it in your hand you got it in your hand. Workhours depends a lot on who works, and so on.
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replied 509d
I mentioned earlier, an "1 Hour" voucher will probably evolve to not be a work hour.
It is just intended to be a valuation of someone being present.
This has another usage: security.
replied 511d
I have to think a bit more about this, but still it seems to me "gold not stolen from vault" is far more reliable than "human being being able to do work of type x" both at given time.
replied 510d
Understand that the Value staked is never actually redeemed except in default.
Issuers would redeem the voucher for some equivalent to "1 hour" job.
They may prefer to give gold, or ?
replied 512d
In theory a bank could make sure this does not happen, and its reputation would be reason to trust it (more so than that of one person), but this too only works temporarily as we know.
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replied 511d
My idea is for everyone to replace banks with their own offerings.
No more banks. just honest folk with their own "promissory note currencies".
Banksters may be scarce when 2024 ends.
replied 511d
There are many reasons to not want to be your own bank. And for not wanting a "promissory note" currency. I struggle to see the masses wanting this enough to overcome such things.
replied 511d
I sincerely hope it never comes to that.
Unfortunately,
collision between hope and current reality trajectories would involve kinetic energies
sufficiently powerful to erase doubts.
replied 511d
Yea, we will definitely have to see what happens. Barter is better than nothing, that's for sure. Your system may enhance barter a bit.
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replied 512d
You can still have notes, but notes backed by gold. Anyway, we all know what that leads to of course, you get bankers with vaults, and eventually fiat as logical next step.
replied 512d
It is easy to simply put on the note "backed by 1gram 24k gold" or whatever.
Perhaps you remember the days of "personal cheques" ?
In these days you become "self-banker with a vaults"
replied 512d
I remember seeing it as a kid, and even then wondering how one can trust someone writing such a cheque. This is the case whether I say "1gram 24k gold" or not.
replied 511d
The free market is quite capable of revealing who to trust
and who to relegate to sweeping streets and collecting rubbish.
Eventually, credible groups will gain market share. Deja Vu
replied 511d
Then these groups will get power, all power corrupts, they will find ways to appear credible, while getting more and more sneaky. Then they invent something called "banks". Deja vu.
replied 511d
Grimm's tales and other ancient histories bear a reflection of what we see today.
The old tales and myths are coming to life with the admonitions of yore.
Words carry heavy forces.
replied 511d
Bad moments loom darkly for anyone using the word "bank", "loan", "interest", etc.
"I will make a bank for your deposits" may be enough to get someone crucified.
for a decade or more.
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Many of us recognize the tales of vampires, demons, and exorcisms
were 'best effort' to pass forward knowledge about
unspeakably horrific entities that prey upon gullible populations
replied 512d
I guess my conclusion is that your model, even if amended over time and so on, I do not see that it is proven to work properly. And atm, govt money probably works best short term.
replied 512d
I agree, the model is not yet proven.
I am seeking a community to test it in.
Govt money will vanish when that moment comes.
There will be little warning and no time to prepare.
replied 512d
I suppose the system is meant only for small communities? Otherwise, most of the most important problems will likely mostly come in bigger communities (which will remain untested?).
replied 511d
The free market shall decide that, not me.
My goal was: find a way for a community to instantaneously create paper currency with no more than what people could promise.
replied 512d
Slowly, step by step they are likely going to fleece us all, but short term, their system is far more practical.
replied 512d
Their system increasingly looks like it will disappear in a big bang event.
I thought it would dwindle away but in Singapore cash is already gone.
replied 512d
Hm, the tide seems to go toward only electronic payment. Not "no way to pay". The masses I think will largely accept this, whether called CBDC or not. Are you sure enough people
replied 511d
Decades of work propping up technological failures for psychopaths who never learn has given insight into this new world order plan. Sudden outages and mischief will occur, regionally.
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When they do there will be serious longings for good old cash,
which only mom&pop shops will be willing to trade.
The trouble at that point is there will be no cash to trade.
replied 511d
I had not thought of that. I suppose if abuse of CBDC gets sufficiently obvious people will indeed seek a way out.
replied 512d
will want your alternative to that system? I am aware of problems with electronic payments, but I use them almost exclusively. Most others seem totally uninterested in their problems.


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