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SubjectiveReality
2081d · anarcho-capitalism
Where and when has an ancap system been implemented effectively? Not trying to troll, just trying to get an idea of real world application and results.
replied 2081d
we have seen some partial examples, and we've seen the free market do some great things, but we haven't seen anything I can call an ancap society really. Modern ancap is relatively new
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2081d
I think anarchy and capitalism are mutually exclusive terms. A market operates on value which means you're going to get a heirarchy no matter what. Ancap is a contradiction in terms.
replied 2081d
The "anarchy" in anarchocapitalism means without government, not without structure or hierarchy. Of course capitalism will always produce a hierarchy, that's a good thing.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2081d
Yeah I think the delusion is in thinking a lazy company/bosses won't start rent seeking or market manipulating(price gouging, fake newsing, etc. etc.).
replied 2081d
Shenanigans are fine as long as the boss is subject to market pressure. Almost all rent seeking these days by large corps is done through gov.
replied 2081d
At least we admit that ancapism begets hierarchy. The ancoms will deny, deny, deny as though under communism there is no politburo. They are completely delusional.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2081d
hierarchy = government. If it's within some sort of nation the boss will be a king, queen, prime minister, president, dictator. In a company, the boss could still be an evil douchebag.
replied 2081d
Hierarchys are social organizational structures. Govs are hierarchies with a monopoly of force. Hierarchy exist without monopoly of force (companies, religion, family).
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2080d
If you can't separate the thing from the value it's the same flawed logic as a Marxist. capitalism = bad, government = bad
Companies, religions and families all can use force.
replied 2080d
They cannot legally initiate the use of force. Government has reserved that for itself as a monopoly.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2080d
You keep saying that word "legally" as if it exists at all in an anarchy. Companies(families, organizations, mafias, etc.) can do whatever the hell they want in an anarchy.
replied 2079d
Key difference is the use of force is distributed, opposed, and thus kept in check. Like countries today. The more distributed force the better (more even playing field).
replied 2079d
you’re right, legally would have different meaning. My point was gov has created for itself a monopoly on initiating force.
replied 2080d
Not sure what you mean by “separate the thing from the value”
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2080d
It's like the word capitalism to a Marxist. It doesn't matter what your definition is, the bad things/people are capitalists and capitalism is the root of everything bad.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2080d
In ancap the word "government" is necessarily pejorative. As if a company or family or other cooperative organization has no governance structure. It's ridiculous and frankly childish.
replied 2079d
You say “government is a pejorative” like it’s unearned. Whenever markets & gov compete markets provide a superior product (UPS/USPS). Gov only wins by outlawing competition.
replied 2079d
Didn’t say everything bad is gov. Said gov has a monopoly on initiating force. Monopolies generally produce poor (aka bad) outcomes and do not happen in free markets.
replied 2079d
Gov is good a supporting rent seeking behavior. Good at paying people to not work. Good at limiting freedom (e.g. “shall not be infringed” = how many gun laws?).
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2079d
Let me suggest to you that your right to free speech and guns, while a natural right, would be much more difficult for you to defend all by your lonesome.
replied 2078d
Security/protection is a service. You dont have to cook your own food, build your own computer, build your own car. Why would you have to defend yourself?
TrashPosterInTheDark
replied 2078d
Why would you want to protect and control your own money when you can trust banks?
replied 2078d
*have to* being the operative word. Dash is assuming u *have to* defend yourself in the absence of gov. can choose to make or buy food, make or buy security, make or buy money storage.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2078d
If you don't write it down you'll have feudalism in no time. I don't see how this isn't self evident from a historical perspective. Whales are lazy, they don't want to compete.
replied 2076d
I’m sure there is a clever person/group who could make it work, why not let them try?
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2075d
Ironically, you'd have to become a group to try - which means you already failed.
replied 2075d
so the irony is where?
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2075d
To have a group you MUST make rules about - who's in or out, where is in or out, what happens when someone violates the rules of the group etc. If you have a group it's not anarchy.
replied 2075d
so every group is a government?
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2075d
You're proposing organizing a group based on a political ideology lol. Of course it's a government!
replied 2075d
1) not everything with a governance structure is a government (e.g. company) 2) governments have a monopoly on violence & citizens are forced to be part of it, without that not a gov.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2075d
What happens when someone violates your "anarchy" contract? High five and say good game?
replied 2075d
what happens when anyone violates any contract. consequences are agreed to in the contract. it may just be a high-five, thanks for the input.
replied 2075d
is every group a government? anarchy means without rulers (ancaps define as basically gov). if you agree to join you'd sign a contract voluntarily.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2075d
Sounds like a constitution to me! What happens when you violate the contract? What if you're framed?
replied 2075d
violations of the contract are covered in the contract when you sign it.
replied 2075d
did you sign the constitution?
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2075d
Will the children of your new anarchy paradise have to sign the contract that members have to sign to get in? What happens if they refuse?
replied 2075d
depends on how it's written. I would favor children being subject to their parents decisions until they're an adult when they can choose.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2075d
What happens if they refuse to sign the contract? What happens if the child of a contract signer violates the contract? What if an internal group organizes to change the contract?
replied 2075d
real question is why someone who wants to try this out needs your permission & you to be ok with every what-if scenario. Why can’t you let people do what they want?
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2075d
Sounds like you don't have an answer 😂😂😂 I'm just trying to get to the bottom of the ideology by asking questions, you don't need my(or anyone's) permission lol
replied 2075d
"There was no place for reconsideration, or revocation, except through revolution, or through consent of the States." Texas v. White
replied 2076d
Point is, people acting through the free market provide an incredible range of products/services (some you dont even know you want until they’ve already been made).
replied 2076d
wasn't talking about writing it down at all but sure write it down, like a contract. and have the people who want to participate in it sign it, like a contract. & don't assume consent.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2078d
It's useful to write it down - "if you live here, nobody can force you to to shut up when you're saying something they don't like. If you try to, your neighbors can arrest you"<---HUGE
replied 2078d
you're not a soc but you’re making the same assumption. “We don’t want gov, as an organization, providing security” != “we don’t want organizations providing security.“
replied 2078d
And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.” - Frédéric Bastiat
replied 2078d
We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality.
replied 2078d
government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education.
replied 2078d
“Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2079d
The prosecution rests.
replied 2079d
Yes, these things have governance structures & hierarchies but they are not governments. You can choose to belong to these organizations. Forced to belong to a government.
replied 2081d
All governments are hierarchies, not all hierarchies are governments.
replied 2081d
Interactions with companies (even working for one) are voluntary and can be ended at anytime (according to rules laid out when the two parties signed an actual contract).
replied 2081d
hierarchy != government. With gov your consent is assumed. ‘Social contract’ is not a contract in that it is not signed by either party.
replied 2081d
freeblr.org/faq/resource/anarchism/have-there-been-any-anarcho-capitalist-societies
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism#Historical_precedents_similar_to_anarcho-capitalism